Interview with Charles Krebs

Charles Krebs is probably one of the best-known names in Applied and Specialized Kinesiology today. Creator of the LEAP program and author of a few books including the encyclopedic ‘Energy Kinesiology — Principles and Practice’ (coauthored by Tania O’Neill McGowan), he became an avid researcher and advocate for kinesiology work after seeing the dramatic impact it made on his own life. I have had the pleasure of speaking with Charles many times, both in class and over dinner, and I knew immediately he was the person I wanted to talk to about energy systems for this issue.

In my naiveté, I suggested that we use questions I had put together to guide the discussion before it turned into a tangent. In actually, I’m not conducting an interview here at all; I’m just along for the ride! For any who would like to see Charles answer in his typical unabridged effusive manner, check out the entire interview of YouTube with this link:


A: What is unique about the meridian system, compared to other body energies, such as chakras for example?

C: Each system has its own connection, but they have differences. The meridians, as the Chinese recognized, were related to organ systems, and they are used for maintaining and nurturing organ systems. Then we have the extra meridians, one that is an endocrine regulator and one that is an autonomic nervous system regulator, but these functions are secondary to the primary organ systems functions. The primary control at this level is from one organ to another organ; how heart and lung can work together.

If we’re going to talk about chi you need to have an understanding of what ‘chi’ is. “A flow of energy,” that’s kind of the best we can do in the West, because we don’t really have the language for it. Western science had trouble with this because they couldn’t measure it (chi). But now we have ways of pretty much demonstrating that it is a real physiological thing, with an electrical basis and measurable properties, so it’s becoming harder and harder to say that meridians don’t exist.

In 2015 they did a study on acupoints with 3D fMRI and they show that the structure under acupoints is found no place else in the skin except for under acupoints. So they are real, physical, anatomical structures. We know that they also have electrical properties. For instance there is a null point, the point of least electrical resistance. You can use a galvanometer to measure and it’s right where the Chinese said it was in traditional acupuncture. Only about 80-85% of the points are on the meridian lines, but we need to remember that the meridian channel is not often near the surface of the skin, it’s deeper, so the point has a little channel that goes to a little vortex that is the point on the surface of the skin. There can be a blood vessel or a nerve that goes across, and if you hit a nerve and you put the needle through the nerve, it’s going to be uncomfortable. If you poke an artery it’s going to bleed. So the Chinese said, well if this is where the point is, if I just move back here and go at an angle, I’m going to be working with the point within the channel and then I can regulate it from over here. This whole system regulates the flows of chi and we can’t see that too well, but we can measure it, like with infrared thermography now. You can have a person that’s in balance, and you can go to an acupoint and put a needle in it, so it’s activated and you can see the change in heat go up and down the meridian and every acupoint lights up, right down the meridian pathway. There’s no explanation in science why that should be.

Not all acupoints function the same. You can have acupoints that get blocked, and when the acupoints get blocked, then the chi doesn’t flow easily through the points. Think of the points as being valves that regulate and control the flow of energy. If a valve gets stuck you can’t regulate homeostasis and function, and that function is related to a particular organ, which is now going to have difficulty functioning. It’s either not getting enough chi or it’s getting too much chi. Now, too much of a good thing is not a good thing! What blocks the point most of the time is a psycho-emotional issue. I would stimulate the point, put it in circuit, and find out what was the issue involved. Almost always it involves the amygdala and some kind of programing, so you clear it and now the energy moves quickly and the point is operating normally. I’m just developing a whole thing now on balancing the etheric (which is the realm the meridians are concerned with), and it has just been mind-blowing. This works for really chronic problems, because the information is actually held in the etheric and the etheric is supposed to be your physical template, to stabilize and even create the physical.

One of the big questions has always been; what is it that allows us to maintain our physiology and our physiological organization, in the presence of the second law of thermodynamics (which is entropy)? All physical things should fall apart over time. Throw a nail in the yard and, dust-to-dust, in time it just goes back to iron oxide. It doesn’t stay as a nail; it goes to nothing, back to its original sources. How can we keep renewing ourselves, maybe not quite so perfectly as we get older, but for a whole lifetime? Western medicine really doesn’t have much of an answer for that. In the East it’s a very straightforward thing; as long as that template is providing information, the physical system can organize itself. When that template becomes distorted, then it (the physical) has nothing to stabilize and it does start to become disorderly. That’s why blocked chi flow is such a big problem; chi flow is what? It’s organizing information. The information exists in a magneto-electric domain; this (acupoints and meridian pathways) is just a conduit. So chi flow is basically a type of deltronic flow that supports the function of the organ, via the, very diverse, meridian system.

In the Law of 5-Elements there are about 80 points and that’s the primary tool used to balance energy in Chinese medicine. The individual points all have unique properties and all affect specific physiology. The meridians carry the chi to a specific organ and it sustains that organ by providing a constant supply of organized information to help maintain the organization of the physical in the face of entropy.


A: You’ve been doing some research on Acupressure formatting — can you explain to me what that is and how it works?

C: What Richard Utt discovered was truly unique. He discovered a way to balance the chakra/nadi system with acupuncture. No-one had combined these systems before. And that’s called the Seven Chi Keys. The other thing he did was to recognize that acupoints have frequencies. If we take two frequencies and we interact them we get a third signal that is the combined waveform of the other two. It’s an energy signature. So rather than working with acupoints individually, what if I take them together at the same time? If I do that, I’m going to have two frequencies and they’re going to obey the laws of physics and create a waveform. What if I’m activating the lung and the liver? Those are two organ systems. Now I’m getting a unique waveform that relates to the interaction of these two organs. Then he brought in hand modes from the mudra system and used these with acupoints. Every combination is going to give you a different frequency waveform. You are working with resonance, like hitting low C and hearing high C ding on a piano. So we have unique frequencies, which we can read through muscle feedback.

For example, the amygdala is in control of our psycho-emotional lives; it’s one of our survival systems. To be able to activate the amygdala, he worked out that you could hold ‘anatomy’ and ‘gland’ (modes) touch CV 23 & 24, and that combination seems to resonate with the limbic system. The limbic system has different parts, what he found for amygdala was CV 14. If you activate the amygdala through stress you change its resonance. If you’re sitting there calm and peaceful, I’m not going to get an indicator change when I check that. So he would put the limbic system (in circuit) and then do something that would activate the amygdala, like slam a book down beside the person’s head. Now, that’s going to fire the amygdala because they weren’t expecting that! So then he’d put that in circuit and go around the alarm points and see what acupoints became active when he gave that challenge. And on each person it was a different combination of points, but CV 14 was the common point. Then he would put on physiology and look at the physiological reactions of the three big emotions in the amygdala: rage, escape and fear. There are two other sets of emotions: pain/punishment and pleasure/reward; and these are so that you remember and learn. Because if you survive you want to remember how you survived!

Right now I’m just trying to get a weekend free so I can finish with this paper that I’m writing with a professor from Harvard Med School, on acupressure formatting detailing an exciting study showing that this causes measurable neurological reactions. I’m just getting that paper together and will be presenting it at the IASK conference in Bergamo in April. Acupressure formatting was a major step in being able to identify specificity. And then Hugo Tobar got totally into this and now has about 10,000 formats. These are ways of non-verbally indicating very specific physiology and it works incredibly well. This all came from the insight of Richard Utt, who came from a background working with physics and electricity, which allowed him to see things in an unique way.


A: What mistakes do you see practitioners making when it comes to working with meridians and acupoints that you would like to educate people about?

C: One thing – and it’s one of my pet peeves – is to ignore the physiology of muscle testing. Someone goes to spindle off a muscle and they go like this (brushes over the area on his arm lightly). This is shirt spindling — you just spindled off my shirt! But you haven’t sedated my muscle. You’ve got to go into the muscle to actually activate the muscle. Accuracy is important and it changes the quality of your results. Thoughtforms go so far, but if you think that Lung 9 is up here (points on upper arm) and use it, it’s not going to work very well!

And another thing I find very annoying, and I don’t think it’s really honoring the system, is this; one of the powerful things about kinesiology is that you, as the person receiving the treatment, should experience what’s happening. You do this in two powerful ways: sight and touch. When a muscle goes weak and then we correct and it goes strong, you know that something changed. You can see that there was a stress that maybe you weren’t consciously aware of, but now you can reason and think about it; you experienced a technique and now when we recheck, you can see that you no longer have any stress on that issue. But there are a lot of people that like to do this (mimes really light testing). It’s so light, I’ve had them work on me and I couldn’t tell if there was a muscle change. I don’t doubt that they were feeling valid muscle changes because it can be very subtle, but it doesn’t help me for you to not show me what’s happening. It makes you look really cool because you know everything, but it’s supposed to be biofeedback, which means they (the client) get the feedback. There’s no reason to test that lightly, that’s just nonsense, because the purpose is for them to have feedback, not just you. And then they can observe change.

The last thing is that you need to be relatively close to an acupoint for it to be effectively stimulated. How big an acupoint is relates to how warm the skin is. If the skin is quite warm, the acupoint can be almost the size of a quarter, whereas if it’s cold, the point is just a dot. But it’s a gradient, so the millimeter circle in the middle is the most intense. If you’re a little out, that’s ok, you’ll just have to stimulate it longer. But if you’re nowhere near it, then it’s only a thoughtform that’s connecting, because you aren’t working with the acupoint itself. So some degree of specificity and identity is needed or you don’t have that overt stimulus going into the system.

A: If you’re trying to plug in a lamp, putting the plug beside the outlet is not going to light up the lamp — we’re talking about an actual electrical flow!

C: Right, the more specific you are the more powerful each correction technique is going to be.


A: Can we talk about your chips? I know you have a new one now for Jet Lag, how does information become encoded on them? How did you decide what to include in each one?

C: The chips originated because I had developed a couple of good nutraceuticals: one for muscle function and one for brain integration. When I would do a corpus callosum test (bear hug test), when people were under stress, it would collapse. I found that often nutrition would lock it up. When you’re under stress your body needs a lot more support to make the neurotransmitters you need. So I had this matrix that worked very well but then my partner who made the actual product retired and I didn’t have anyone else to produce it. I met this man in Germany who is an engineer by training but has had all kinds of shamanistic experiences. He had worked with a Shaman in West Africa who had taught him how to energetically imprint things. The first thing he had made was a chip to block EMFs; absorbing in the microwave range and releasing what are called Schumann frequencies — earth’s natural background radiation. He is the one making the actual chips with the information selected.

Now there is a muscle chip imprinted with frequencies and if is there is a muscle imbalance and it’s a physiological problem (doesn’t work if there’s emotional crap on it) and you put the chip on the body, the muscles will go into homeostasis. Now there are a whole chain of these; chips for different psycho-emotional states, for different physiology imbalances. The TA chip replaces the old Thinking Advantage nutraceutical formula; it does the same thing, and it reintegrates brain function. You can use these with SIPS too (Stress Indicator Point System), you can find the active points, download the stress, and then use the chip as a correction and you get an even better result because you’ve downloaded the stress first.

And this is what I call informational medicine. The only thing present is information. But all you ever need to heal is information. As soon as I give your body the information it needs, it heals itself. And all information is frequency and frequency interactions. Everywhere you look now you’re seeing informational-based medicines that are coming out and they’re very disruptive of the current system. Because, if I can put my muscle chip on and, 1,2,3,4,5, your pain in your shoulder goes away, how much ibuprofen and aspirin are you not going to be using anymore because your pain is gone? It’s bad news for big pharma. As this stream of technology begins to make inroads it’s going to be strongly resisted. This is going to be the next big thing and in kinesiology we’re perfectly centered because we have a mechanism to give us feedback to let us use this informational medicine. We have the tool that you need.


Check out the interview on YouTube which includes information about how the Chinese knew about these pathways, William Tiller’s dimensions of negative space/time, vaccines, EMFs, and all of Charles’ sound effects and gestures, which I have attempted to reduce to words here!


Body Electric Issue : Spring 2017

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